Past White House Briefings on C.I.A. Leak Case
(via New York Times)
President Bush and Scott McClellan, the White House spokesman, have discussed the disclosure of the identity of a covert C.I.A. operative at a variety of news conferences and briefings for reporters. Following are excerpts of transcripts of those sessions as recorded by the White House and Federal News Service.
President Bush on Oct. 7, 2003, talking with reporters after meeting with Cabinet members.
Q. Mr. President, beyond the actual leak of classified information, there are reports that someone in the administration was trying to - after it was already out - actively spread the story, even calling Ambassador Wilson's wife "fair game." Are you asking your staff is anyone did that? And would it be wrong or even a fire-able offense if that happened?
A. Well, the investigators will ask our staff about what people did or did not do. This is a town of - where a lot of people leak. And I've constantly expressed my displeasure with leaks, particularly leaks of classified information. And I want to know, I want to know the truth. I want to see to it that the truth prevail. And I hope we can get this investigation done in a thorough way, as quickly as possible.
But the Justice Department will conduct this investigation. The professionals in the Justice Department will be involved in ferreting out the truth. These are citizens who will - were here before this administration arrived and will be here after this administration leaves. And they'll come to the bottom of this, and we'll find out the truth. And that will be - that's a good thing for this administration.
Q. Mr. President, how confident are you the investigation will find the leaker in the C.I.A. case? And what do you make of Sharon's comment that Israel will strike its enemies at any place, any time?
A. This is the dual question. (Laughter.) I'm trying to figure out if I want to answer either of them, since you violated a major rule. (Laughter.) At least it's not a cell phone. (Laughter.)
Randy, you tell me, how many sources have you had that's leaked information that you've exposed or have been exposed? Probably none. I mean this town is a - is a town full of people who like to leak information. And I don't know if we're going to find out the senior administration official. Now, this is a large administration, and there's a lot of senior officials. I don't have any idea. I'd like to. I want to know the truth. That's why I've instructed this staff of mine to cooperate fully with the investigators - full disclosure, everything we know the investigators will find out. I have no idea whether we'll find out who the leaker is - partially because, in all due respect to your profession, you do a very good job of protecting the leakers. But we'll find out.
President Bush on Sept. 30, 2003, talking with reporters after meeting with business people at University of Chicago.
Q. Do you think that the Justice Department can conduct an impartial investigation, considering the political ramifications of the C.I.A. leak, and why wouldn't a special counsel be better?
A. Yes. Let me just say something about leaks in Washington. There are too many leaks of classified information in Washington. There's leaks at the executive branch; there's leaks in the legislative branch. There's just too many leaks. And if there is a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is. And if the person has violated law, the person will be taken care of.
And so I welcome the investigation. I - I'm absolutely confident that the Justice Department will do a very good job. There's a special division of career Justice Department officials who are tasked with doing this kind of work; they have done this kind of work before in Washington this year. I have told our administration, people in my administration to be fully cooperative.
I want to know the truth. If anybody has got any information inside our administration or outside our administration, it would be helpful if they came forward with the information so we can find out whether or not these allegations are true and get on about the business.
Q. Have you talked to Karl and do you have confidence in him …
A. Listen, I know of nobody - I don't know of anybody in my administration who leaked classified information. If somebody did leak classified information, I'd like to know it, and we'll take the appropriate action. And this investigation is a good thing.
And again I repeat, you know, Washington is a town where there's all kinds of allegations. You've heard much of the allegations. And if people have got solid information, please come forward with it. And that would be people inside the information who are the so-called anonymous sources, or people outside the information - outside the administration. And we can clarify this thing very quickly if people who have got solid evidence would come forward and speak out. And I would hope they would.
And then we'll get to the bottom of this and move on. But I want to tell you something - leaks of classified information are a bad thing. And we've had them - there's too much leaking in Washington. That's just the way it is. And we've had leaks out of the administrative branch, had leaks out of the legislative branch, and out of the executive branch and the legislative branch, and I've spoken out consistently against them and I want to know who the leakers are.
President Bush on June 10, 2004, at news conference after G-8 Summit in Sea Island, Ga.
Q. Given recent developments in the C.I.A. leak case, particularly Vice President Cheney's discussions with the investigators, do you still stand by what you said several months ago, suggestion that it might difficult to identify anybody who leaked the agent's name? And ...
A. That's up …
Q. And do you stand by your pledge to fire anyone found to have done so? And …
A. Yes.
Q. And finally …
A. And that's up to the U.S. attorney - to find the facts.
Q. My final point would be - or question would be, has Vice President Cheney assured you, subsequent to his conversations with them, that nobody in his office had anything …
A. I haven't talked to the vice president about this matter, and I suggest - recently, and I suggest you - you talk to the U.S. attorney about that.
Scott McClellan, the White House spokesman, at a briefing Sept. 16, 2003.
Q. Two things. On the Robert Novak-Joseph Wilson situation, Novak reported earlier this year, quoting anonymous government sources telling him that Wilson's wife was a C.I.A. operative. Now, this is apparently a federal offense to [word unclear] the cover of a C.I.A. operative.Wilson now believes that the person who did this was Karl Rove. He's quoted from a speech last month as saying, "At the end of the day, it's of keen interest to me to see whether or not we can get Karl Rove marched out of the White House in handcuffs." Did Karl Rove tell …
A. I haven't heard that. That's just totally ridiculous. But we've already addressed this issue.
Q. But did Karl Rove …
A. If I could find out who anonymous people were - I just said it's totally ridiculous.
Q. But did Karl Rove do it?'
A. I said it's totally ridiculous.
Scott McClellan at a briefing Sept. 29, 2003.
Q. All right, let me just follow up. You said this morning, quote, "The president knows that Karl Rove wasn't involved." How does he know that?
A. Well, I've made it very clear that it was a ridiculous suggestion in the first place. I saw some comments this morning from the person who made that suggestion backing away from that. And I said it is simply not true. So - I mean, it's public knowledge I've said that it's not true.
Q. Well, how …
A. And I have spoken with Karl Rove. I'm not going to get into conversations that the president has with advisers or staff, or anything of that nature. That's not my practice.
Q. But the president has a factual basis for knowing that Karl Rove …
A. Well, I said it publicly. I said that - and so, I've made it very clear.
Q. I'm not asking what you said, I'm asking if the president has a factual basis for saying - for your statement that he knows Karl Rove …
A. He's aware of what I said, that there is simply no truth to that suggestion. And I have - I have spoken with Karl about it.…
Q. But, Scott, it gets to the question, if you know - if the president knows that Karl Rove was not involved, then maybe you can tell us more about what the president specifically is doing to get to the bottom of this, or what has he ordered to be done within the White House to get to the bottom …
A. The president wants anyone, anyone who has information relating to this to report that information to the appropriate agency, the Department of Justice. That's what the president wants, and I've been very clear about that. If …
Q. So he's convinced that there was no White House involvement …
A. You know, if I could get - well, if I could get anonymous to fess up, that would make my life a whole lot easier. But there's been nothing - there has been absolutely …
Q. My question is, does he know, is he convinced that no one in the White House was involved with this?
A. There has been absolutely nothing brought to our attention to suggest any White House involvement. All we've seen is what is in the media reports. Media reports cite senior administration official, or senior administration officials.
Q. So they're wrong?
A. But I haven't seen anything before that. That's why it's appropriate for the Department of Justice, if something like this happened, to look into it.
Q. So those media reports are wrong, as far as the White House is concerned?
A. Well, we have nothing beyond those media reports to suggest there is White House involvement. And so …
Q. And the president …
A. There's been no specific information brought to my attention to suggest …
Q. He's not doing anything proactive?
Q. Let me - let me follow up on …
A. No, he's making it clear that this is a serious - through his spokesman, me, that this is a serious matter, and if someone did this, it should be looked into and it should be pursued to the fullest extent.…
Q. What do you say to people out there who are watching this and must be saying, you know, I voted for George Bush because he promised to change the way things work in Washington, and yet his spokesman …
A. And he has.
Q. … and yet his spokesman is saying that there's no internal even questioning of whether or not people were involved in this, and he's just letting that be handled at the Justice Department, letting it pursue more of a criminal investigation as opposed to almost an ethical
A. Dana, think about what you're asking. Do you have specific information to bring to our attention that suggests White House involvement?
Q. No, but - (off mike) -
A. There are anonymous reports all the time in the media. The president has set high standards, the highest of standards, for people in his administration. He's made it very clear to people in his administration that he expects them to adhere to the highest standards of conduct. If anyone in this administration was involved in it, they would no longer be in this administration.…
Q. Scott, we do know one thing that did happen, and that is that a name was leaked of a C.I.A. operative. Whoever did it, does the president want some type of Justice Department investigation into just that?
A. Well, like I said, one, I've only - I've seen the media reports, and from one report I saw, that the C.I.A. had neither confirmed nor denied that this individual was a covert operative for the C.I.A.
Q. Why don't they deny it …
A. But, yes, if something like this happened, a leak of highly classified information of this nature, the president would want it looked into and pursued to the fullest extent by the Department of Justice.…
Q. Okay, now, in terms of your efforts to - and in terms of the issue of whether or not to contact senior administration officials, are you saying it is inappropriate to contact them on behalf of the president, or that it's too difficult?
A. I'm sorry, contact - contact them in the sense of asking whether or not there was any involvement?
Q. Well, obviously someone contacted Karl Rove. There was some effort to knock down a specific allegation here. So I'm wondering, why not contact others? Were others contacted in the - among the president's senior advisers?
A. Well, there was a specific allegation leveled - I saw it was - has now since been backed away from - about Karl Rove, and that's why I responded to that question. But I think we could go down the White House directory of every single staff member and play that game. I'm not going to do that. What I've made clear is that if anybody has information relating to this, they need to report it to the Department of Justice, and the Department of Justice should pursue it to the fullest. It is a serious matter. But I'm not going to go down a list of every single staffer in the White House when there's not specific information that has been brought to my attention to suggest …
Q. - inappropriate, in your view, or is it just too diffuse, it's too difficult? I don't understand exactly what the reason is that you wouldn't expand the effort from Karl Rove to perhaps another dozen or so people who might have been …
A. Well, we've got important work to do here in Washington, D.C., for the people of this nation, and the president will continue to focus on the priorities we are pursuing: the war on terrorism; strengthening the economy. There are a number of important priorities we are focused on. There are a lot of anonymous media reports that happen all the time, and it's not our practice to go and try to chase down anonymous sources every time there's a report in the media. If there's specific information that comes to our attention, that's another matter. But there has not been any information beyond what we've seen in just anonymous media reporting to suggest that there was White House involvement.
Q. (Off mike.)…
Q. Scott, just one point. You said that the president knows that Karl Rove was not involved, and you specifically have spoken to Karl Rove and gotten these assurances. By those statements, you've implied that the president has not talk to Karl Rove specifically about this. Is that a correct assumption or …
A. No, I said that - what - I've already answered this question when Terry asked it earlier, and I said that it's not my habit to get into conversations the president has with staff or with advisers. So that's just not - I'm not going to get - I'm not going to get into those conversations. I've made it clear that it simply is not true, and I'm speaking on behalf of the White House when I say that.…
Q. Scott, just a couple quick clarifications. Weeks ago, when you were first asked whether Mr. Rove had the conversation with Robert Novak that produced the column, you dismissed it as ridiculous.
A. That's right.
Q. And I want to just make sure, at that time, had you talked to Karl?
A. I've made it very clear from the beginning that it is totally ridiculous. I've known Karl - I've known Karl for a long time, and I didn't even need to go ask Karl, because I know the kind of person that he is, and he is someone that is committed to the highest standards of conduct.
Q. So you didn't have a subsequent conversation with Mr. Rove in order to say that you had this conversation?
A. I have spoken with Karl about this matter.
Q. When did you talk to him?
A. I have spoken with Karl about this matter.
Q. When did you talk to him? Weeks ago, or just recently?
A. And I've already addressed. What I said then still applies today, and that's what I've made clear.
Q. I have one other follow-up.
A. Okay.
Q. Can you say for the record whether Mr. Rove possessed the information about Mr. Wilson's wife but merely did not talk to anybody about it? Do you know whether for a fact he knew?
A. I don't know whether or not - I mean, I'm sure he probably saw the same media reports everybody else in this room has.
Q. No …
Q. Before.
Q. When you talked to Mr. Rove, did you discuss, "Did you ever have this information?" Could you have talked …
A. Yeah, I mean, we're going down a lot of different roads here. I've made it very clear, he was not involved, that there's no truth to the suggestion that he was.
Q. No, I'm trying to ask …
A. And again, I'd say, I didn't - it's not something I needed to ask him, but I like to, like you do, verify things and make sure that it's completely accurate. But I knew that Karl would not be involved in something like this.
President Bush and Scott McClellan, the White House spokesman, have discussed the disclosure of the identity of a covert C.I.A. operative at a variety of news conferences and briefings for reporters. Following are excerpts of transcripts of those sessions as recorded by the White House and Federal News Service.
President Bush on Oct. 7, 2003, talking with reporters after meeting with Cabinet members.
Q. Mr. President, beyond the actual leak of classified information, there are reports that someone in the administration was trying to - after it was already out - actively spread the story, even calling Ambassador Wilson's wife "fair game." Are you asking your staff is anyone did that? And would it be wrong or even a fire-able offense if that happened?
A. Well, the investigators will ask our staff about what people did or did not do. This is a town of - where a lot of people leak. And I've constantly expressed my displeasure with leaks, particularly leaks of classified information. And I want to know, I want to know the truth. I want to see to it that the truth prevail. And I hope we can get this investigation done in a thorough way, as quickly as possible.
But the Justice Department will conduct this investigation. The professionals in the Justice Department will be involved in ferreting out the truth. These are citizens who will - were here before this administration arrived and will be here after this administration leaves. And they'll come to the bottom of this, and we'll find out the truth. And that will be - that's a good thing for this administration.
Q. Mr. President, how confident are you the investigation will find the leaker in the C.I.A. case? And what do you make of Sharon's comment that Israel will strike its enemies at any place, any time?
A. This is the dual question. (Laughter.) I'm trying to figure out if I want to answer either of them, since you violated a major rule. (Laughter.) At least it's not a cell phone. (Laughter.)
Randy, you tell me, how many sources have you had that's leaked information that you've exposed or have been exposed? Probably none. I mean this town is a - is a town full of people who like to leak information. And I don't know if we're going to find out the senior administration official. Now, this is a large administration, and there's a lot of senior officials. I don't have any idea. I'd like to. I want to know the truth. That's why I've instructed this staff of mine to cooperate fully with the investigators - full disclosure, everything we know the investigators will find out. I have no idea whether we'll find out who the leaker is - partially because, in all due respect to your profession, you do a very good job of protecting the leakers. But we'll find out.
President Bush on Sept. 30, 2003, talking with reporters after meeting with business people at University of Chicago.
Q. Do you think that the Justice Department can conduct an impartial investigation, considering the political ramifications of the C.I.A. leak, and why wouldn't a special counsel be better?
A. Yes. Let me just say something about leaks in Washington. There are too many leaks of classified information in Washington. There's leaks at the executive branch; there's leaks in the legislative branch. There's just too many leaks. And if there is a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is. And if the person has violated law, the person will be taken care of.
And so I welcome the investigation. I - I'm absolutely confident that the Justice Department will do a very good job. There's a special division of career Justice Department officials who are tasked with doing this kind of work; they have done this kind of work before in Washington this year. I have told our administration, people in my administration to be fully cooperative.
I want to know the truth. If anybody has got any information inside our administration or outside our administration, it would be helpful if they came forward with the information so we can find out whether or not these allegations are true and get on about the business.
Q. Have you talked to Karl and do you have confidence in him …
A. Listen, I know of nobody - I don't know of anybody in my administration who leaked classified information. If somebody did leak classified information, I'd like to know it, and we'll take the appropriate action. And this investigation is a good thing.
And again I repeat, you know, Washington is a town where there's all kinds of allegations. You've heard much of the allegations. And if people have got solid information, please come forward with it. And that would be people inside the information who are the so-called anonymous sources, or people outside the information - outside the administration. And we can clarify this thing very quickly if people who have got solid evidence would come forward and speak out. And I would hope they would.
And then we'll get to the bottom of this and move on. But I want to tell you something - leaks of classified information are a bad thing. And we've had them - there's too much leaking in Washington. That's just the way it is. And we've had leaks out of the administrative branch, had leaks out of the legislative branch, and out of the executive branch and the legislative branch, and I've spoken out consistently against them and I want to know who the leakers are.
President Bush on June 10, 2004, at news conference after G-8 Summit in Sea Island, Ga.
Q. Given recent developments in the C.I.A. leak case, particularly Vice President Cheney's discussions with the investigators, do you still stand by what you said several months ago, suggestion that it might difficult to identify anybody who leaked the agent's name? And ...
A. That's up …
Q. And do you stand by your pledge to fire anyone found to have done so? And …
A. Yes.
Q. And finally …
A. And that's up to the U.S. attorney - to find the facts.
Q. My final point would be - or question would be, has Vice President Cheney assured you, subsequent to his conversations with them, that nobody in his office had anything …
A. I haven't talked to the vice president about this matter, and I suggest - recently, and I suggest you - you talk to the U.S. attorney about that.
Scott McClellan, the White House spokesman, at a briefing Sept. 16, 2003.
Q. Two things. On the Robert Novak-Joseph Wilson situation, Novak reported earlier this year, quoting anonymous government sources telling him that Wilson's wife was a C.I.A. operative. Now, this is apparently a federal offense to [word unclear] the cover of a C.I.A. operative.Wilson now believes that the person who did this was Karl Rove. He's quoted from a speech last month as saying, "At the end of the day, it's of keen interest to me to see whether or not we can get Karl Rove marched out of the White House in handcuffs." Did Karl Rove tell …
A. I haven't heard that. That's just totally ridiculous. But we've already addressed this issue.
Q. But did Karl Rove …
A. If I could find out who anonymous people were - I just said it's totally ridiculous.
Q. But did Karl Rove do it?'
A. I said it's totally ridiculous.
Scott McClellan at a briefing Sept. 29, 2003.
Q. All right, let me just follow up. You said this morning, quote, "The president knows that Karl Rove wasn't involved." How does he know that?
A. Well, I've made it very clear that it was a ridiculous suggestion in the first place. I saw some comments this morning from the person who made that suggestion backing away from that. And I said it is simply not true. So - I mean, it's public knowledge I've said that it's not true.
Q. Well, how …
A. And I have spoken with Karl Rove. I'm not going to get into conversations that the president has with advisers or staff, or anything of that nature. That's not my practice.
Q. But the president has a factual basis for knowing that Karl Rove …
A. Well, I said it publicly. I said that - and so, I've made it very clear.
Q. I'm not asking what you said, I'm asking if the president has a factual basis for saying - for your statement that he knows Karl Rove …
A. He's aware of what I said, that there is simply no truth to that suggestion. And I have - I have spoken with Karl about it.…
Q. But, Scott, it gets to the question, if you know - if the president knows that Karl Rove was not involved, then maybe you can tell us more about what the president specifically is doing to get to the bottom of this, or what has he ordered to be done within the White House to get to the bottom …
A. The president wants anyone, anyone who has information relating to this to report that information to the appropriate agency, the Department of Justice. That's what the president wants, and I've been very clear about that. If …
Q. So he's convinced that there was no White House involvement …
A. You know, if I could get - well, if I could get anonymous to fess up, that would make my life a whole lot easier. But there's been nothing - there has been absolutely …
Q. My question is, does he know, is he convinced that no one in the White House was involved with this?
A. There has been absolutely nothing brought to our attention to suggest any White House involvement. All we've seen is what is in the media reports. Media reports cite senior administration official, or senior administration officials.
Q. So they're wrong?
A. But I haven't seen anything before that. That's why it's appropriate for the Department of Justice, if something like this happened, to look into it.
Q. So those media reports are wrong, as far as the White House is concerned?
A. Well, we have nothing beyond those media reports to suggest there is White House involvement. And so …
Q. And the president …
A. There's been no specific information brought to my attention to suggest …
Q. He's not doing anything proactive?
Q. Let me - let me follow up on …
A. No, he's making it clear that this is a serious - through his spokesman, me, that this is a serious matter, and if someone did this, it should be looked into and it should be pursued to the fullest extent.…
Q. What do you say to people out there who are watching this and must be saying, you know, I voted for George Bush because he promised to change the way things work in Washington, and yet his spokesman …
A. And he has.
Q. … and yet his spokesman is saying that there's no internal even questioning of whether or not people were involved in this, and he's just letting that be handled at the Justice Department, letting it pursue more of a criminal investigation as opposed to almost an ethical
A. Dana, think about what you're asking. Do you have specific information to bring to our attention that suggests White House involvement?
Q. No, but - (off mike) -
A. There are anonymous reports all the time in the media. The president has set high standards, the highest of standards, for people in his administration. He's made it very clear to people in his administration that he expects them to adhere to the highest standards of conduct. If anyone in this administration was involved in it, they would no longer be in this administration.…
Q. Scott, we do know one thing that did happen, and that is that a name was leaked of a C.I.A. operative. Whoever did it, does the president want some type of Justice Department investigation into just that?
A. Well, like I said, one, I've only - I've seen the media reports, and from one report I saw, that the C.I.A. had neither confirmed nor denied that this individual was a covert operative for the C.I.A.
Q. Why don't they deny it …
A. But, yes, if something like this happened, a leak of highly classified information of this nature, the president would want it looked into and pursued to the fullest extent by the Department of Justice.…
Q. Okay, now, in terms of your efforts to - and in terms of the issue of whether or not to contact senior administration officials, are you saying it is inappropriate to contact them on behalf of the president, or that it's too difficult?
A. I'm sorry, contact - contact them in the sense of asking whether or not there was any involvement?
Q. Well, obviously someone contacted Karl Rove. There was some effort to knock down a specific allegation here. So I'm wondering, why not contact others? Were others contacted in the - among the president's senior advisers?
A. Well, there was a specific allegation leveled - I saw it was - has now since been backed away from - about Karl Rove, and that's why I responded to that question. But I think we could go down the White House directory of every single staff member and play that game. I'm not going to do that. What I've made clear is that if anybody has information relating to this, they need to report it to the Department of Justice, and the Department of Justice should pursue it to the fullest. It is a serious matter. But I'm not going to go down a list of every single staffer in the White House when there's not specific information that has been brought to my attention to suggest …
Q. - inappropriate, in your view, or is it just too diffuse, it's too difficult? I don't understand exactly what the reason is that you wouldn't expand the effort from Karl Rove to perhaps another dozen or so people who might have been …
A. Well, we've got important work to do here in Washington, D.C., for the people of this nation, and the president will continue to focus on the priorities we are pursuing: the war on terrorism; strengthening the economy. There are a number of important priorities we are focused on. There are a lot of anonymous media reports that happen all the time, and it's not our practice to go and try to chase down anonymous sources every time there's a report in the media. If there's specific information that comes to our attention, that's another matter. But there has not been any information beyond what we've seen in just anonymous media reporting to suggest that there was White House involvement.
Q. (Off mike.)…
Q. Scott, just one point. You said that the president knows that Karl Rove was not involved, and you specifically have spoken to Karl Rove and gotten these assurances. By those statements, you've implied that the president has not talk to Karl Rove specifically about this. Is that a correct assumption or …
A. No, I said that - what - I've already answered this question when Terry asked it earlier, and I said that it's not my habit to get into conversations the president has with staff or with advisers. So that's just not - I'm not going to get - I'm not going to get into those conversations. I've made it clear that it simply is not true, and I'm speaking on behalf of the White House when I say that.…
Q. Scott, just a couple quick clarifications. Weeks ago, when you were first asked whether Mr. Rove had the conversation with Robert Novak that produced the column, you dismissed it as ridiculous.
A. That's right.
Q. And I want to just make sure, at that time, had you talked to Karl?
A. I've made it very clear from the beginning that it is totally ridiculous. I've known Karl - I've known Karl for a long time, and I didn't even need to go ask Karl, because I know the kind of person that he is, and he is someone that is committed to the highest standards of conduct.
Q. So you didn't have a subsequent conversation with Mr. Rove in order to say that you had this conversation?
A. I have spoken with Karl about this matter.
Q. When did you talk to him?
A. I have spoken with Karl about this matter.
Q. When did you talk to him? Weeks ago, or just recently?
A. And I've already addressed. What I said then still applies today, and that's what I've made clear.
Q. I have one other follow-up.
A. Okay.
Q. Can you say for the record whether Mr. Rove possessed the information about Mr. Wilson's wife but merely did not talk to anybody about it? Do you know whether for a fact he knew?
A. I don't know whether or not - I mean, I'm sure he probably saw the same media reports everybody else in this room has.
Q. No …
Q. Before.
Q. When you talked to Mr. Rove, did you discuss, "Did you ever have this information?" Could you have talked …
A. Yeah, I mean, we're going down a lot of different roads here. I've made it very clear, he was not involved, that there's no truth to the suggestion that he was.
Q. No, I'm trying to ask …
A. And again, I'd say, I didn't - it's not something I needed to ask him, but I like to, like you do, verify things and make sure that it's completely accurate. But I knew that Karl would not be involved in something like this.
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